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Too many breeders, or not enough?

8K views 78 replies 31 participants last post by  CarolinaCasey 
#1 ·
There is no shortage of dogs in the world, and no shortage of Goldens. Yet, it can be very hard to find a good quality Golden puppy. What do you think: is the breed and the world better served by having more people becoming hobby breeders, or are there enough (or too many) already?

Issues I'm thinking of are quality of the breed, number of unwanted dogs, overall number of dogs, ease of finding a quality puppy, price of a good puppy, and future of the breed.

Your opiinions please! :)
 
#2 ·
I know I have been trying to research reputable Great Pyrenees breeders. I know some of the names of them from actually meeting them at dog shows, but unfortunately they do not have a presence on the internet. I am thinking these days we rely on the internet for most of our searches of things, that we forget that there are many that have not gone in that direction, so there are probably many out there, that we don't know about. We have to remember that breeders are not a business. They breed first for themselves and to improve the breed, so for most of them, advertising is not important.

I also think there is a shortage of reputable breeders of any breed and too many puppy mills and BYB. It may feel frustrating and unfortunately it does make it difficult at times to "time" when you want to bring a new puppy into your home.
 
#3 ·
HMMMM...well that's a conundrum and perhaps a loaded question.


Honestly I think there are enough breeders, just not enough doing it right...and that encompasses many area's not just the clearances etc...but that is not a discussion I am going to get into as it is bound to take this post to places best not gone...:bowl:
 
#4 ·
WAY too many hobby breeders! All that happens when people breed dogs because "they can" or want they experience is creating more and more possibly badly bred, unwanted dogs.

Also, while its great to be able to afford a dog at a lower price, when backyard/hobby breeders sell their pups (who are likely not exemplifying the breed standard and has not health certs)and the price of a dog is set as so anyone can afford it you wind up with someone that has not invested a lot into an animal and is therefore subject to "giving up" or deciding they don't want it down the road. When dogs are so readily available and at low quality where the bad breeding can continue you don't know if the purchaser is really serious about being a dog owner.

I've seen people buy a hobby bred dog because it was cheap and appeared to have good breeding but they decide down the road that the dog is too much and get rid of it either by neglect or surrender. This is the source of overcrowded pounds and dogs continuing to breed with health/breed standard faults.

In my opinion it goes back to hobby breeders and the like. When someone pays a larger sum of money from a reputable breeder then there is a commitment to that animal. I'm sure it still happens but people who invest money into a dog that is breed standard and is healthy, they take care of it not only because they were willing to go into their savings money to pay for it but they decided to go with a good breeder because they actually care about the condition of the dog. Also with many big breeders, the purchaser has to sign a contract saying they will not breed the dog they purchase along with other stipulations. This fixes the chance that the high quality dog is going to a home where it will not be used for breeding and will be cared for.

My beautiful Yukon is the result of this "I bred her because I could" mindset. His Golden mother was left at a pound with 8 four-week old puppies. The owner had surrendered them because quote, "she did not wat them and it was an accident" She had the male and the female golden and she had gotten pregnant. She kept the male and got rid of the mother and the resulting pups. Yukon was one of the pups. Mind you, Yukon is an unbelievably fantastic dog. Smart, beautiful and well-behaved and so far healthy. But what about what happened to the mother and the other 7 malnourished, filthy puppies that were in the pound for weeks? While my intent with Yukon is to pamper and love him until the day he dies,is that the intent of whoever else got the others? Maybe the mother is being used for breeding again because whoever saw her in the pound saw the beautiful puppies she had made...I don't know but yes I think this happens too much because of people who are misinformed about what betters a breed etc. A dog should only be bred if it betters the breed or follows standard.

Yeah, too many breeders :) Thanks for listening to my rant. haha
 
#7 ·
WAY too many hobby breeders! All that happens when people breed dogs because "they can" or want they experience is creating more and more possibly badly bred, unwanted dogs....
Perhaps some definition of terms would be helpful.

Years of reading on this Forum have taught me that most people here use the term "hobby breeder" to refer to breeders who work hard to improve the breed, investing in testing and certifications aimed at eliminating inherited diseases and competitions to validate the worth of the dogs. These breeders are not in it for the money and they rarely if ever recoup all of their costs from a litter of puppies.

"Backyard breeders" are people who breed their dogs without knowledge of or interest in the genetic issues. Testing and certifications are often missing and competitions are usually few. These breeders may or may not be making money from their dogs, but they show little regard for the health of the breed as a whole.

"Puppy mills" are only in it for the money, caring little for the dogs or the breed.

Using these definitions, I believe that we don't have enough hobby breeders, but we have way too many backyard breeders and puppy mills. I say this having bought only one dog from a reputable breeder in a lifetime of having them as companions, while my other dogs have come from backyard breeders or animal shelters. I suspect that I have paid far more in veterinary costs and heartache as a result.
 
#11 ·
I don't think it's a loaded question, at all! Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Here's where I am coming from:

Goldens are way overbred. But the problem is that people get puppies from back yard breeders and puppy mills rather than from reputable breeders because those BYB/PM pups are easy to find and are inexpensive. If there were more reputable hobby breeders, and healthy pups of good type, structure and temperament were therefore easier to find (and perhaps less expensive because of increased supply), perhaps it would be better overall for the breed and also for people buying Goldens. And since hobby breeders are generally conscientious about following their pups, there might be fewer unwanted or neglected ones.

OTOH, perhaps it would just increase the overall number of Goldens, and would increase rather than decrease the number of unwanted or neglected Goldens. I just don't know.

My gut feeling is that we need more good hobby breeders. If more quality puppies were available, I think it would be better for the breed in the long run. As it is, there are more poor quality Goldens than good quality ones. If we upped the number and percentage of quality pups, that has to be a good thing, right? But the conventional wisdom says we already have too many dogs, and it would be bad for dogs to breed even more of them. So, I don't know. Not intended as a loaded question, but a sincere inquiry into the philosophy and effect of improving the breed and making good Goldens more available to casual buyers.
 
#6 ·
I actually found that it is a lot harder to find a golden at the pound or in a rescue up here. I have been looking for months and found none in rescue for a long time. Most dogs at the pound anymore are pit bull mixes. Not sure why that is. There are very few byb's or even small breeders anymore here breeding goldens. It is actually getting very hard to find a golden well bred or not. We used to see a lot of sled dogs at the pound that didn't make the cut for speed. Now you hardly ever see them either.
 
#9 ·
Yes, I found the same thing both in Massachusetts and Missouri.

In MA, I couldn't find any, so that is why I went with a reputable breeder. In MO, after three months of searching, I had to travel over 200 miles to rescue a golden.

There are many goldens listed up for adoption, but many of them do not resemble golden retrievers at all. I can't tell you how many of the had black fur!!
 
#8 ·
Just want to make a terms clarification. Hobby breeders are the reputable breeders--backyard breeders are not the same as hobby breeders. Small reputable breeders are referred to as hobby breeders because we show, trial, and train, and breed litters for ourselves to continue these activities as a hobby, and for the love of the breed, not to make a living (like large commercial breeders) or some extra spending money (like the BYBs).

Edit note: GOldensGirl you must have been typing while I was!
 
#12 · (Edited)
My goodness! That's a tough one. I agree that there are too many unwanted dogs in the world, particularly those that are low quality. I have respect for people who wish to become responsible breeeders, but only after performing all 4 clearances and performing or competing in some way to prove the soundness and quality of the dog. I should say then is that I respect those people who would like to show a dog and perform with it. With that said, I have mixed feelings when it comes to the amount of Golden puppies. Any dog worth that weight in gold (Get it?) is worth producing, meaning that it is an improvement over the previous generation of dogs. Quality golden puppies are hard to come by. I personally would like it if more people decided to take on the challenge of breeding high quality of Goldens as long as they do it right by having the primary goal of showing the dog to prove it's worth first. On the the other hand there are still way too much lower quality BYB pups out there. There are still puppy mills providing poor quality Golden pups to pet stores. And there are also oopsie litters taking place too often. I love puppies so much! I admit that I would personally love it if there were more high quality pet puppies available. However, breeders do not breed solely to produce pet puppies. Their goal is to breed to produce a better generation of offspring to show and compete with. But like I said, I do think there is a shortage of high quality Goldens, but too many of the lower quality kinds. However, I know that most reputable breeders are not going to breed to increase the availability of high quality pet puppies and I respect that. Some reputable breeders will only have a litter once or twice a year, which would contribute to the shortage of high quality puppies. It is not about puppy buyers getting a good puppy that is on their minds. That is secondary to them. Plus they are not selling puppies for a profit. It is about putting the work into breeding a litter with the goal in mind to produce better examples of the breed. They also have no control over the size of the litters.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Also you have to consider the convenience/quick gratification factor.


Most often when you dealing with a reputable breeder, it is not just a matter of deciding that today is the day to get a new puppy. Often, with reputable breeders, you do your research, you find a litter that you like and then you wait for them to be born and/or at least finish being raised to 7-8 weeks. No instant gratification.

With Puppy mills and BYB's, if instant gratification is what you seek, you will most often be able to satisify it.

Today, our society is very instant gratification based and that causes a lot of undesirable consequences.
 
#21 ·
Also you have to consider the convenience/quick gratification factor.


Most often when you dealing with a reputable breeder, it is not just a matter of deciding that today is the day to get a new puppy. Often, with reputable breeders, you do your research, you find a litter that you like and then you wait for them to be born and/or at least finish being raised to 7-8 weeks. No instant gratification.

With Puppy mills and BYB's, if instant gratification is what you seek, you will most often be able to satisify it.

Today, our society is very instant gratification based and that cause a lot of undesirable consequences.
That's the thing. The vast majority of puppy buyers want a puppy. They are not breed aficionados. They know nothing about disease or health clearances, and hearing about it would sound ridiculous to them, because they all grew up with BYB puppies that were "wonderful" and "just fine."

I'm thinking in particular of one person (I'll call her "Lisa") who I'm having a play date with tomorrow. She loves Goldens and has three of them, but knows literally nothing about them. She buys repeatedly from a back yard breeder who does not get clearances, does not prove her dogs, and actively markets to pet buyers. In fact, because the city has come down on this breeder for having too many dogs, "Lisa" has taken a female pup for the purpose of raising it and allowing this breeder to plop out litters in Lisa's home. Lisa just loves the dogs. She doesn't know anything about hip dysplasia. She's had Goldens for 20 years and if she's had a dysplastic dog she doesn't know it.

I'm convinced that if Lisa had had easy access to a reputable breeder when she thought of buying a puppy, she'd be having nothing but quality Goldens right now. As it is, her whole life experience is buying dogs out of parents without clearances or titles, and she's had no problems with it, so she doesn't see why that's even an issue. And that's how a LOT of people think, but they wouldn't think that way if they had easy access to good hobby breeders.

In order to find a good hobby breeder, you either have to luck out or you have to really want to find a good hobby breeder and go to a lot of trouble finding one. That's even true here in California where you can't spit without hitting a Golden. Even here in my very upscale gated community, where there are Goldens everywhere you look, most of them are obviously poor quality and not from serious hobby breeders.

With most folks, I think it's a combination of instant gratification and lack of education (and not even understanding why one needs to be educated). I don't think it's a "look down your nose at those who merely want instant gratification," though there's certainly an aspect of that to it, cuz when little Johnny wants a puppy we get him a puppy. I think it's more that most well-meaning folks simply don't get why quality is important, and they never will unless they happen across a reputable breeder by chance.

[/rant]
 
#22 ·
There will always be a market for the BYB/High Volume Breeders/Mills because our society is of a "I want it now" mentality. So long as people act on their impulses, they will keep these "drive thru" puppy profiteers in business. I agree that there are many that just don't know better. However, I see people that research their DISHWASHER more thoroughly than they do a puppy that lives, breathes, and will be with the family for 10+ years. I know people who I've referred to my breeder, to breeders in my club, etc--- but they just couldn't wait, didn't care, etc.

One doesn't become a great breeder overnight. Maybe one day I will have a bitch and breed, but right now I am more than content with my boys. There is no pressure to breed, but I LOVE to show and have been very successful in my short amount of time. I feel that many put the cart before the horse and buy a bitch and then want to breed without taking the time to learn OR have a mentor. Having a mentor is so important-- having more than one is perfect! There is just so much to learn and it doesn't happen overnight. My local club has more inquiries for puppies than our member-breeders can fulfill. So I do recongize the need for more quality puppies, reputable hobby breeders, and more "up & comers" but I don't think we need to fulfill a shortage overnight. I think it probably varies geographically, too.

So, I guess the answer is yes, no, maybe so!
 
#23 ·
I think there is a self-limiting number of reputable breeders for any breed. To do it reputably it is a lot of work and a lot of heart-ache and lots of money for what?

Many breeders do it for awhile and then they suffer a heart-break from a litter or a specific dog and get out of breeding. On the Facebook Golden breeders/exhibitors group, there has so much sadness recently due to Hydrops, a condition where a pregnant female retains to much fluid in their uterus. This can easily lead to loss of pups and the mother. These people LOVE their dogs and have put so much into the pups they hope to see that something like Hydrops can crush them.

I decided not to breed my Selli for a number of reasons, a major one being the fact that I could not bear the risk of losing her due to breeding or having puppies. Breeders who have more fortitude than I do will still limit the number of litters any one of their beloved girls have. Additionally, these breeders will only have the number of girls they can love and care for properly. Those two factors limit the number of puppies a good breeder will produce.

I do think that there are enough good breeders, it just requires a determination of a puppy buyer to find them, not a bad thing considering how much work having a puppy is.
 
#75 · (Edited)
There may be a need for the public to have better working definitions of a good hobby breeder. There is a breeder in my state charging 2,000 for pups with parents who have no titles and spotty clearances, but then there are breeders doing all clearances and competing to high titles like MH and AM CH, yet charging 1,200 to 1,500. However, the nice pet people cannot always tell the difference.
Golden breeders/exhibitors group, there has so much sadness recently due to Hydrops, a condition where a pregnant female retains to much fluid in their uterus. This can easily lead to loss of pups and the mother. These people LOVE their dogs and have put so much into the pups they hope to see that something like Hydrops can crush them.

I decided not to breed my Selli for a number of reasons, a major one being the fact that I could not bear the risk of losing her due to breeding or having puppies.
I love this point, bc I am right there right now. My 22 month old girl is all done bother her american championship and her grand champion title. After she turns two providing all is well with her final clearances, I do plan to breed her. . . except I am panicky something like hydrops might happen to her. I love her so much- I can easily see deciding not to take a risk for pups. While it is easy to say we need more excellent breeders who do it for the right reasons, it is SUCH a serious moral undertaking.
 
#24 ·
DanaRuns,

I think the biggest hurdle is lack of education, and education also does not happen overnight.

I had three dogs of other breeds that I bought from BYB's. I THOUGHT I was doing the correct thing by not buying from a puppy mill or pet store, but as the years went on, and I started researching and reading, I learned otherwise.

I try to pass on my wisdom to others when I hear they are shopping for a dog, unfortunately many do not want to hear it.

I'll tell you though, these same people do definitely notice the difference in the quality of your well bred dog, compared to their BYB when they are side by side. Maybe, when you have your playdates with "Lisa" you can start to educate her, in baby steps.
 
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#26 ·
You know, I'm trying to educate her, but she just thinks I'm stuffy and hifalutin. And maybe I am! :D What's going to make educating her more difficult is telling her this stuff while her dogs are playing with my rescue Golden who is 47 lbs. full grown and a structural mess. (She's the one covered in mud in the pic below.)

Lisa knows I'm getting another show prospect male pup, and she has already suggested that I breed him to her female pup, and when I tried politely to explain why I'm not going to do that, she just declared me a Golden snob. :shrug:
 
#25 ·
I think that we all know that BYBs are here to stay, no matter how many responsible breeders there are. We can hopefully get rid of puppy mills, but BYBs, no way in he**. The poster that stated our desire for instant gratification hit the nail on the head. No matter how many quality litters are bred, those breeders will not sell to any Joe Blow that comes along. They will be selective in their choices of homes, as they should be.

So where does that leave those buyers that really shouldn't have a puppy/dog or just don't want to be bothered with dealing with breeders that actually care about the puppies they produce? You got it...buying from the BYBs. I'm talking about people that consistently get rid of dogs, have no vet references, hoarders and just generally irresponsible people.

IMO, we could always use more responsible breeders. Mainly because of the fact that breeders that have been around a long time will one day stop breeding. So we need to have others to step up and follow in their footsteps. And quite possibly with more ethical breeders, those qualified buyers that would otherwise not know about responsible breeding might be more likely to come in contact with the good ones as opposed to the BYBs.

I know that this is probably a controvertial subject, but I'm going to go there anyway. ;) I believe that responsible breeders should have ads everywhere. They should inundate sites like Kijiji, hoobly, puppyfind, ect. Put their ads right up there next to all the puppy mills' ads, BYBs' ads and make sure that they list all the health testing they have done and how they can prove it. This is one of the ways to reach the masses and let your average puppy buyer see how it's done right. Breed clubs should also be listed and should help their breeders with the cost.

Pictures alone would impress people. They could actually see the difference in a well bred dog vs the ones put out by the bad breeders. I know a few Dane breeders that do this consistently and have made quite an impact on people looking for puppies. They always have ads up and if they don't have puppies at the time, they refer them to other reputable breeders. They also take a ton of time to educate. It works...if more breeders did it, they might be able to take those sites away from the scum breeders. Just a thought...
 
#27 ·
I know that this is probably a controvertial subject, but I'm going to go there anyway. ;) I believe that responsible breeders should have ads everywhere. They should inundate sites like Kijiji, hoobly, puppyfind, ect. Put their ads right up there next to all the puppy mills' ads, BYBs' ads and make sure that they list all the health testing they have done and how they can prove it. This is one of the ways to reach the masses and let your average puppy buyer see how it's done right. Breed clubs should also be listed and should help their breeders with the cost.

Pictures alone would impress people. They could actually see the difference in a well bred dog vs the ones put out by the bad breeders. I know a few Dane breeders that do this consistently and have made quite an impact on people looking for puppies. They always have ads up and if they don't have puppies at the time, they refer them to other reputable breeders. They also take a ton of time to educate. It works...if more breeders did it, they might be able to take those sites away from the scum breeders. Just a thought...
I'm not sure why that would be controversial. Sounds like a fantastic idea, to me.
 
#28 ·
I also heard that reputable breeders do not want their specific breed to become too popular.

As much as I love to watch dog movies, especially ones that have golden retrievers in it, such as the Airbud and Buddies movies, these movies do a big injustice to the breed. It makes people think irrationally to want to get a particular breed without doing the proper research, therefore increasing the demand, and then the BYB's and puppymills getting involved to supply that demand, and then the quality of the breed goes down.

We saw this with Cocker Spaniel's with the Lady and the Tramp movie, dalmations with the 101 dalmations, and the golden retrievers.

I have to admit myself, I was never in the market for a golden retriever until my daughter started asking for a gold puppy.
 
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#33 · (Edited)
I wish there were more well bred dogs. Too many people have asked if Molly was purebred. A fellow golden retriever owner told me she didn't think Molly was purebred because she had never seen one with such a big head. WOW did I want to reply with something snarky but I did not!!! *Smile and walk away*

But when you have other golden retriever owners asking if your well bred golden is purebred, there is a problem.
 
#34 ·
Yes! With my last show boy (who really was stunning in his prime) I, also, had people -- even Golden owners! -- ask me what kind of dog he was, or if he was pure bred. Amazing and sad that an actual Golden Retriever that is representative of the breed isn't recognized as a Golden even by Golden owners. :(

Something needs to be done. I suggested self-deportation for all puppy mills and back yard breeders, but it never caught on. :D
 
#36 ·
I never see any category for professional breeders. Breeders who do it as a business. They breed, show, do clearances. I have never seen them mentioned in any of the threads about breeders.
I know one in particular that started out as a serious hobby breeder and turned it into a business. I know she isn't the only one. Why aren't they ever mentioned?
 
#38 ·
There is no shortage of dogs in the world, and no shortage of Goldens. Yet, it can be very hard to find a good quality Golden puppy. What do you think: is the breed and the world better served by having more people becoming hobby breeders, or are there enough (or too many) already?
I think we need more breeders so we can create some downward pressure on pricing and more less restrictive options for people who don't like to sign contracts that keep them from raising their new puppies in the ways they feel are best. Too few breeders allows the demand to get high enough that the breeders can raise their prices skyhigh and demand whatever they want contractually, which forces a lot of people who can't afford it or refuse to deal with the restrictions to go the backyard breeder route or pay cash to someone on Craigslist or whatever. And that does mean bad things for the breed in some respects. If people watching out for the breed standard could find a way to reduce their prices, make more puppies available, and stop it with the contracts and the delays and deposits and stuff, there would be no market for backyard breeders. But I'd never buy from anyone but a backyard breeder as things stand, because I need an affordable dog, and I want no strings attached.

Also you have to consider the convenience/quick gratification factor.


Most often when you dealing with a reputable breeder, it is not just a matter of deciding that today is the day to get a new puppy. Often, with reputable breeders, you do your research, you find a litter that you like and then you wait for them to be born and/or at least finish being raised to 7-8 weeks. No instant gratification.

With Puppy mills and BYB's, if instant gratification is what you seek, you will most often be able to satisify it.

Today, our society is very instant gratification based and that causes a lot of undesirable consequences.
You know, if the pretentious breeders would stop looking down their nose at their prospective customers and try to meet their needs instead of bending them to their will, they might have fewer of said customers going to backyard breeders that the pretentious breeders hate. Just saying.

You want people to buy from you instead of the people you disapprove of, you've got to meet them where they're at. That might mean lower prices, same day adoption, no or minimal contracts, etc.. Don't want to do that? Then deal with the fact that people will continue to patronize backyard breeders because they meet their needs better.
 
#76 ·
These posts really seem to me like deliberate attempts to be inflammatory and upset people. I thought about reporting them, but I thought it might be better to simply collect them together.

Too few breeders allows the demand to get high enough that the breeders can raise their prices skyhigh and demand whatever they want contractually
Good hobby breeders take a loss on breedings. They don't raise their prices because they can. They keep them artificially low.

But I'd never buy from anyone but a backyard breeder as things stand, because I need an affordable dog
You continually post this fallacy. A dog with a history of health clearances is the most affordable dog possible. A backyard bred dog comes with lots of hidden costs that you have ignored across a clean dozen threads at this point. The numbers on dysplasia rates are public information, as are the costs of surgery and the other associated costs. Buying an "affordable" backyard bred dog is deliberately blinding yourself to the risks in order to save an amount upfront that pales in comparison to the cost of the consequences.

You know, if the pretentious breeders would stop looking down their nose at their prospective customers and try to meet their needs instead of bending them to their will, they might have fewer of said customers going to backyard breeders that the pretentious breeders hate.
It's incredibly unfair to label down-to-earth, hardworking hobby breeders as "pretentious" the good ones and the vast majority are anything but pretentious.

This can just as easily be achieved by not multilating my dog...
So incredibly unnecessary. You say that you don't like that people say you should have to neuter your dog and that they should respect your decisions vis a vis neutering, but you feel free posting insulting, inflammatory language against neutering.

I can't help but wonder if some classism might be in play...
You have zero evidence that anybody advocating for clearances and proper breeding practices does so for reasons of class. It's about the health of the dogs. Accusations of pretension and classism are just a cheap sham to cover over your unwillingness to acknowledge the math and your willingness to gamble the health of your future dog for a few bucks.
 
#41 · (Edited by Moderator)
IMO I think there needs to be more hobby breeders. I have been looking for a golden puppy for a couple of weeks now and visited several times and I was appalled at the BYB's that I visited. Never bought from one before but you don't really know until you get there. So this lady is advertising AKC goldens around a price I feel is reasonable. I go visit and what a hot freaking mess! There's no way in he** they were purebred and I'm definitely not buying from someone that has the puppies walking around and laying in feces and urine. What was she thinking!? It was so disgusting and smelled terrible. I was there all of about 5 minutes. And what's messed up is there were puppies and all but 3 were sold, just waiting til they were old enough to take home. Luckily I found an amazing hobby breeder, sure it was more money but she was very passionate about her dogs and my ability to care for her puppy. That sold me. Long story short, more reputable breeders. Very hard to find.
 
#51 ·
There will probably always be too many and too few depending on the type.
Even one puppy mill will be too many.
There will always be too many back yard breeders.
There will probably always be fewer responsible hobby breeders than there should be.

The most scary of all though are a sub-group of back yard breeders. For the lack of a better term, I call them "Wool Pullers". These folks are really dishonest either through lies, telling only partial truth, or withholding information from puppy buyers. It is the goal of these folks to "look" like a reputable breeder and they get the same or nearly the same price for their puppies.
Here are some examples of behavior these people ingage in.

Getting OFA clearences for things that are not in or GRCA COE like pattlar luxation etc. then promoting their dogs are OFA'd even though they did not test hips, elbows, hearts or eyes.

Testing for only hips or just hips and elbows.

Telling puppy buyers dogs under two have clearences. Prelims are not clearences. Then continue to breed them their whole life on these prelims.

Breeding dogs with missing clearances. It is a pretty good assumption that if you see a dog with an elbow, heart and eye clearence: they did not pass on hips. If you don't see hearts and eyes, you need to ask to see them.

Breeding dogs with failed hips, failed elbows, failed hearts, hearts by practitioner (current dogs, historically frozen seamen dogs would have had the clearences recommended by GRCA at the time they lived, and we know the wool pullers would not be paying the kind of money it takes to breed to one of the frozen greats anyway) juvinial cataracts,(I know this is a hot point, I personally would not breed this dog at all, but Wool Pullers would and most importantly would not disclose) Grade 1 elbow displaysia (again, I know this is a hot point, I personally would not breed this dog at all, but Wool Pullers would and most importantly would not disclose) and severe allergies.

The other thing they will do is tout their success in the show ring, counting on folks not knowing the difference in levels of competition. I recently finished a UKC Championship in one weekend. An accomplishment I an very proud of. That however does not mean she is at the same level as an AKC Champion or Grand Champion. Now, she is 12 months old and I think she will get an AKC CH as a mature dog, but it is not the same and I know it. Wool Pullers don't educate their buyers, they just want to impress buyers with the Title of Champion, no matter where it was earned. I am all for competition and there is value to every level, my issue is when it is used in a dishonest way to inflate a price and mislead a buyer. For a large price tag I would expect more accomplished parents no matter the discipline, conformation, hunting, obedience, agility, etc.

We all talk about how important education is. It of course is critical when a puppy buyer is serious about a healthy puppy and is willing to research and wait. This is why Wool Pullers are so scary. Even the most informed first time buyer can get taken in by these folks.

It is something a lot of us who have been around the sport know exists and that is why on almost every single "I think I have found my puppy, litter, breeder" post people will always say "be sure to check the clearances" or "do your due diligence and check on www.offa.org". We know there are Wool Pullers out there hoping you don't know enough to realize the dogs they are breeding should not be. They are hoping you will fork over your $1000-$2000 for their risky or less proven puppy instead of paying the same down the road for a puppy who is from cleared and competitive stock.

I guess my whole soap box comes down to BE HONEST.

Everyone is going to get their dog from where they choose. I just think no matter where we buy, we should all be able to count on honesty and it is so sad, that we can not.
 
#55 ·
Let's assume there was a gradual increase in the number of responsible hobby breeders until it was, say, double what it is today. What do you think the effects would be?

I can think of a couple right away:

1. More of the available puppies would be healthy, have the correct temperament, and come from breeders that care what happens to these puppies throughout their lives.

2. The number of Goldens being shown would roughly double. That means it would become even harder to finish a dog, and the number of dogs that need to be defeated in order to get a major would go from the current 2 billion to twice the number of stars in the universe.

Hmmmm.
 
#58 ·
Let's assume there was a gradual increase in the number of responsible hobby breeders until it was, say, double what it is today. What do you think the effects would be?

I can think of a couple right away:

1. More of the available puppies would be healthy, have the correct temperament, and come from breeders that care what happens to these puppies throughout their lives.
Perhaps, but not necessarilly.



2. The number of Goldens being shown would roughly double. That means it would become even harder to finish a dog, and the number of dogs that need to be defeated in order to get a major would go from the current 2 billion to twice the number of stars in the universe.

Hmmmm.
Not likely.

You're making an assumption that Conformation is THE reason sombody gets a Golden. That is not the case. The reality is that very very few golden owners participate in any type of organized activity whatsoever, let alone Conformation.
 
#56 · (Edited)
While we're dreaming about perfect breeding practices, I would love to see more attention paid to breeding dogs that will be companions for us "pet people," who are actually in the majority. Too often we get the puppies that don't make the cut as show dogs and I suspect that the structure of competitions tends to move the breed towards athletic, high-energy dogs who may not be ideal for family life in an average home. That may contribute to the number of Goldens who end up in rescues or shelters.

It would be wonderful to see more "credit" given for dogs that qualify as therapy dogs or otherwise demonstrate a gentle, calm temperament. Better yet would be responsible breeding of Goldens who are intended from their carefully planned conception to be pets. I know some breeders do this and I thank every one of them from the bottom of my heart.
 
#60 ·
While we're dreaming about perfect breeding practices, I would love to see more attention paid to breeding dogs that will be companions for us "pet people," who are actually in the majority. Too often we get the puppies that don't make the cut as show dogs and I suspect that the structure of competitions tends to move the breed towards athletic, high-energy dogs who may not be ideal for family life in an average home...
I don't really agree with the above. Most of the puppies in a litter will not be show quality. So in a very roundabout way, hobby breeders do breed for pet people. If a litter is bred correctly, the difference between show vs pet is usually so miniscule, that the average pet owner couldn't tell the difference. I also don't think that those "pet" puppies are so different in temperament than their show quality siblings. In fact, most breeders want their show pups to have more of an "up" temperament as opposed to a very laid back one.

I think when you get a litter that varies a lot in those things, it's usually because of the breeder not knowing their own lines and those of the dog they bred to.

There's a Dane breeder I know, that when you see one of her dogs you instantly know it's one of hers because her dogs are so uniform in looks. She knows her lines so well and studies pedigrees forever, that her pet pups and show pups are virtually indistinguishable from each other. At least to most people, but not to her. And they're all super sweet.

IMO, if a breeder's pet puppies and show puppies are that different in temperament and structure, then they're not doing things right.
 
#57 ·
Maybe Too Many Uneducated Breeders

I think the Golden Retriever is one of the most superior breeds out there. That said, I also think it is one on the brink of self-destruction due to poor breeding practitioners.

Whenever you have a breed that has so many cases of bad skin, heart defects, hip and elbow dysplasia, etc, it raises speculation that there is too much inbreeding and not enough stringent bloodline diversification.

I am not a breeder, nor am I an expert on breeding Golden Retrievers, but I expect those that are breeding and selling them to be EXPERTS, and impose only the highest restrictions of conformity upon themselves and their puppies.

I have owned Golden Retrievers since I was a boy in the 80s, and, in that time, we have had several that ended up with hip dysplasia and repeated skin hotspots. Luckily no cancer or heart issues, and they've all lived well above 11 years and one even to 14.

One of those pups had such bad hip problems that we had to have the balls of her femur bones cut so she could walk (can't remember the exact name of her disability). That is an EXPENSIVE procedure for such a young dog - good news was that she could then run top speed! She is now going to be 13 this month, so she's been a great friend and family member.

My point is this, check out your breeders' credentials, and, if you are thinking of becoming a Golden breeder, make sure to HAVE THE PROPER CREDENTIALS.

I'm told that this can be a lucrative hobby business, but if you're ending up muddling the bloodlines and causing health problems, you should get out!

Just my opinions - feel free to school me or weigh in with opposing views.
 
#61 ·
I'm told that this can be a lucrative hobby business, but if you're ending up muddling the bloodlines and causing health problems, you should get out!
Lucrative? Not so much. As you're new to the forum I encourage you to spend some time reading threads on what the reputable breeders go through to produce those fluffly balls of joy & the expenses associated with it. And if you're by chance associated with the blog/website with the same name as your username, you would be served well by the section, "Choosing a Golden Retriever and Puppy".
 
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