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Ridgeview Goldens will have puppies on the ground 12/1

14K views 42 replies 18 participants last post by  Ash 
#1 ·
FYI, for anyone in California interested in a quality puppy, Ridgeview has a litter of 8-10 pups due at the end of this month. I've met the breeder and she is fabulous. She is taking puppy reservations now. It looks to be a good litter. Pedigree: Roxy X Sonny

:)
 
#6 · (Edited)
There are an awful lot of reputable breeders who have decided that breeding to Sonny is acceptable. I know that Melissa has thought deeply about this. I guess we'll see.

Your 45% comment isn't necessarily accurate in other than a general sense. I've read the study that came up with that number, which is general statistical figure for puppies from two parents with ED -- not the case here, as both parents have good hips and elbows. To my knowledge, no one really knows the risks in any particular pairing, and how ED is passed on, and how much of it is environmental, and what the true rate is, as most pet dogs -- the vast majority from most litters -- never get tested or reported. As you correctly note, almost all of Sonny's siblings were sold to show homes. Who knows what the rate would be if all pet puppies were tested and reported? That's one of the self-acknowledged limitations of the study you cite.

Also, the Sonny sibling elbows all seem to be from the particular pairing of Ryder x Versace. When you look at the pairings of each of those dogs with others, you don't see the elbows (but again, you also don't see all the pups going to show homes and getting tested). And unfortunately, no one knows how that trait is passed on, or if there is a heightened risk in subsequent generations (beyond the generation of Ryder x Versace pups). In fact, not a single study has noted a second generation increase in ED from pups who passed OFA; and instead have noted in that generation the exact same 11% rate of reported ED. So, the only study on point concludes that pups of parents who both passed OFA hips (even if siblings did not) has the exact same chance of ED as found in the general population.

Of course, none of this is determinative. We all want a LOT more information on these things. Our lack of real knowledge is frustrating, and can lead to a lot of different opinions as we all try to tease out the truth and the real risks. Which, I suppose, is why breeders differ so much in their ideas of what is and is not a risky breeding.

And the reason I am aware of the Ryder issues and ED studies is because of a long conversation with Melissa about this, and how she evaluated the risk in this breeding. She is very open about this. I even contacted some of the owners of Sonny siblings that didn't pass elbows to see what the situation was, hoping I could learn more about this. One was due to an injury. Two others were asymptomatic grade 1 ED in one elbow (both the left). None of them were bred.

I will be interested in seeing how all the great many Sonny pups around the country test as they get old enough for OFA certs. If you go by the study conclusions, this Sonny x Roxy litter should have no greater incidence than the general population. But we shall see.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I know of many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows.
Wow. On my second reading of your post, this really stuck out. Really? Is this true? Please, do tell me the details. You appear to have information far beyond what other breeders have told me, and what is listed on both the OFA and K-9 Data websites, combined. Please tell me which are the "many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows." This would seem to be stunningly damning, indeed, with regard to Ryder. Ryder sired 72 litters out of 54 separate dams, that I know of. Please identify the "many other litters" where "the entire litter failed elbows."

Wow. I'd think the whole Golden Retriever world would have deafening alarm bells ringing if that were true, considering how many puppies Ryder sired, and how many lines he is now in.

I just have to say it again: Wow. What a damning statement, and defamatory if it's not true.

With Sonny (the sire of this litter), all but one pup in his litter was tested, and all but one of those cleared hips, elbows, heart and eyes. And I've looked at every other litter of Ryder's that I could find. I did find some where no puppies from the litter were tested (and none of them were shown), and I have talked to a number of people who have bred to Ryder, but I did not find any Ryder litters where the "entire litter failed elbows." Having made the statement and raised the issue, if you really do know of "many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows" you should definitely tell me where they are. I'm sure others would like to know, too.
 
#8 ·
I'd also like to make a comment on the point that a lot of breeders are breeding to him....sadly I don't see that as a good sign...It is discussed a lot among breeders about "popular sire syndrome" and breeding to what wins. Sonny has done VERY well in the ring and so has many of his siblings. It has been an incredible breeding in terms of success in the show ring....do you think its possible that fact might allow breeders to rationalize some health risks, in hopes of producing a litter of winners?
 
#9 · (Edited)
This is the same discussion that comes up all over the country every time someone breeds to Sonny, because he is the #3 Golden in the country this year (and his sister, Chloe is #1), and because he is being sired prolifically. I doubt we will have anything new to say. The only science we have that I have seen suggests that the odds of ED in issue from any two parents passing elbows is 11%, and does not indicate causation of higher rates due to clearances or lack thereof in aunts and uncles. I would certainly be very interested in reading any study that concludes a heightened risk, as you say, so would you be kind enough to provide me a link or other source that I can read? I'm very interested in learning as much as possible about this so I can tell fact from conjecture. I'm trying to find every scientific study on this that I can. The problem for all of us is that there just isn't enough, at this point. But please help me learn by pointing me in the right direction. I will happily agree with you on all of this if I can "see it with my own eyes."

There is so much conflicting anecdotal evidence out there, it's head-spinning. I know of a litter of six, where three of the pups were exercised hard at a young age, and three were not. The three that were exercised all failed elbows. The three that were not all passed. What does that say? No one knows. But that doesn't stop people from coming to all sorts of conclusions. We are all looking for answers where certainty is lacking.

I'm not sure about your suggestion that it doesn't matter whether we test all pups in a litter or which ones we test. The ones who are tested tend to be the ones that seem most structurally sound at 8 weeks, and which go on to be shown. The ones with perhaps the greater potential for hip or elbow problems often don't get sent to show homes and don't get tested. At 8 weeks you can tell on some puppies that their front ends are not put together in a sound way, and I suggest that those are the most likely to fail elbows and the least likely to be tested.

As for your suggestion that popular sire syndrome might give rise to denial in breeders, that certainly can be the case. We humans have a terrific and unfortunate capacity for rationalization. But I would hesitate to label all breeders who choose to breed to a particular dog (Sonny or another) as rationalizing, just because they make a breeding that you would not.

But you talk about popular sire syndrome, it is definitely a problem. Kirby (Rush Hill's Haagen Dazs) produced more children than China does, and he didn't receive clearances until he was 10 years old. Back then, they just weren't available and people were breeding in the dark, passing on huge numbers of problems throughout the breed. Thankfully, Kirby passed and his kids did pretty well.

I think you've pretty successfully trashed Sonny pups, here. I don't think it's warranted. In a couple years we can compare notes on how all the great many Sonny pups across the country fare on OFAs. :)
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think that until every golden gets tested for hips and elbows, you cannot make blanket statements about the heritability of such traits. I have a bitch who has clear elbows and hips and has produced such. Other than her puppy that I kept, all went to pet homes, so no OFA's, but none are clinical for any lameness... I sold one of her brothers whose owners came back to me two years later for a pup. My bitch reaborbed her pups, so I sent them to the breeder that had the sire of the dog they got from me.... At least three pups from that very large litter had clinical ED and HD. I own an extremely sound 8.5 year old bitch from the same sire. While it gave me pause to know he sired ED and HD, you also have to consider that some combos are not meant to be. A friend of mine bred a litter years ago and all pups were clinically sound. She bred the same bitch to a different dog and most male pups in the litter had shoulder OCD.... OFA is also skewed as some animals rads are not sent in when ED and HD are blatantly obvious...

And anyone who has ever bred a litter knows it is always a judgment call. Can any breeder here tell me that there isn't something somewhere in a pedigree that gives them pause???
 
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#11 ·
I have a bitch who has clear elbows and hips and has produced such. Other than her puppy that I kept, all went to pet homes, so no OFA's,...
Are there any breeders that ever stipulate in their contracts that even pet puppies be health tested? I had Chance's elbow x-rayed when he was 2.5 years old and at the time went ahead and did his other elbow and also his hips. Are breeders ever curious as to how their pet puppies would test? I would have no issue if I ever bought a puppy with this in it's contract. Just wondering if it's ever done and if it's felt that this would hinder puppy buyers.
 
#13 ·
Kwhit, my second golden came from a breeder who required hips and elbows on pups. Of the six in this litter there were many clear elbows and four clear hips. The breeder,her self who was privy to all of our info, did ,not tell us how her pup turned out(didn't show up on OFA and was very vague with me when I questioned her). My girl ended up being mildly unilaterally dysplastic at 44 months. Ideally I would love for people to do rads, but not when they neuter, but at 24 months.
 
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#15 ·
Hi all,

I was forwarded this thread by a friend and it really amazes me how people can be so ignorant when it comes to clearances regarding stud dogs, etc. I am not going to address this one by one because I am short on time but I URGE all of you to contact the breeders/owners/handlers before you make assumptions. Sonny comes from a litter and breeding that have a great success rate of clearances, just because something isnt on OFA does not mean that they failed. Until we require all pet people to do clearances we cannot assume. What I do know about this pedigree is that compared to most pedigrees they have a good clearance rating and the hip production record is fantastic. Multiple littermates in Sonny's litter were OFA excellent and quite frankly I was surprised when he got a good based on his XRAYS... maybe we will resubmit and try for an excellent. At any rate, I do not believe Sonny is just a dog that wins in the ring, quite frankly I think he will be remembered as a great stud dog based on how he is producing. Temperament, type, structure, and soundness. People are quick to point fingers when they see what is on the computer. I highly suggest you talk to people and get to know the dogs personally and understand whats really back there. I think you would be pleased once you educate yourself further.

Brianna Bischoff
Emery Goldens
 
#18 ·
No dog is perfect, no pedigree is perfect... There is always something... Careful the statements you make... There needs to be a public place that backs up the accusations...
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am appalled that someone would choose to air personal opinions of a famous stud dog in our breed (a top producer and sire of the current #1 bitch & #1 dog in breed this year). I know that Judy welcomes talking about pedigrees and health and has more knowledge and integrity then most of us could ever hope to have in a lifetime of work with this breed. I was asked to post this response from the owners of Ryder since they don’t have access to this group.


The recent post of Ryder has been very painful and very untrue. It is not a full picture. ???????? I don't know why you are so hateful Of Ryder and his kids. It appears to me you think you know everything but you have personally accomplished very little.

The Ryder story is one of a dream come true. My husband and I wanted to see if we could special a dog and put him in the SDHF. Ryder was finished by us and his breeder. His Hall of Fame points came mostly by Ken. We had the right dog and we had to learn to groom and handle better to compete at that level. Ryder had five Specialty BOB handled by Ken or his breeder Donna. Ryder was a Top Twenty Golden in 2006. We didn't take out ads. It was hard but we achieved our goal with our boy.

As a stud dog Ryder was especially on his own, no advertising. We met some wonderful people along the way who I am now proud to call friends. It was always about good people and good dogs. To date Ryder has sired 41 Champions, Leader Dogs for the blind, and the best granddog pups you can imagine.

If anyone wants to know about a stud dog, they should contact the owner and try not to pay attention to people who are mean spirited and like to denigrate others peoples achievements.

Was everything perfect all the time? Of course not, but, that's the reality of dog breeding. Pointing fingers and spreading rumors certainly doesn't help openness among breeders.

And yes dogs do have mothers too.

If anyone has any questions, call

Judy Schlecht
Confetti Goldens
 
#25 · (Edited)
kdowningxc said: Pedigree: Chantilly's Easy Ryder
This entire litter failed elbows.
I'd like you to point out anything I said that wasn't fact.



First off you should state facts and the ENTIRE litter did not fail elbows. Second you should also look at the mother who in fact failed OFA elbows and the breeder went through a registry that no longer exists to get her to clear. How can you blame it all on the sire or stud dog owner? Who by the way had elbow clearences along with several generations behind him with clear elbows! Third you said there were MANY litters that had entire ED failures from this sire which again is inaccurate. Fourth no one is hiding anything, get off the computer and ask if it applies to your breeding program instead of stirring up trouble.
 
#27 ·
I realize this is an extremely touchy subject, but I do appreciate the fact that reputable breeders and those pursuing titling their goldens are actively engaged in discussions. I do hope things can remain civil because this forum has so much to gain from multiple reputable breeders discussing topics like these in the open as opposed to the great number of BYBs and HVBs who pass through with their slick websites and spun stories touting their dogs are healthy & don't need clearances. I do fear if the tone is catty (and I understand reputations are on the line here) that this will just reinforce the average public to steer clear of reputable breeders and fall prey to those with the great marketing schemes cause they seem to be "friendly".
 
#30 · (Edited by Moderator)
I don't care what kdowning says. I've researched the **** out of this breeding, talked to tons of owners/breeders, and read clearances and studies until my head started spinning. This pairing looks fantastic and as safe as any. And I note that Kim's statements don't hold up, and she changes her story. I've also talked with others (some on this board) who had rational[\i] questions about Ryder's pups, who bought Ryder pups, who bought Sonny pups, who chose not to buy those pups, who own Ryder siblings, and two veterinarians (who were actually the least help of anyone). I'm satisfied.

And I'm not going to let a bloviating sourpuss spoil my fun! :D
 
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