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What do you think about this breeder?

35K views 106 replies 29 participants last post by  hvgoldens4 
#1 · (Edited)
I ran across this breeder's webpage while doing my nightly search of Golden Puppies in the area.

They look like a reputable breeder, what do you guy's think?

Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - HOME - BANKS, OR

I would LOVE it if I could get my pup from a breeder, but the price always seems daunting to me(I know I know, saves money in the long run, price of health, ect. ect., it just seems like a lot!)

I'll probably end up rescuing from a local shelter(Assuming they'll let me have one with me living in a apt. and not having a fenced yard*yet, we're getting one soon-ish* which several of the local rescues/shelters have strict policy's on).
 
#16 ·
It looks like she is dishonest about her dogs' hip and elbow clearances.


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She is? Didn't know that. I thought that since she shows and competes with her goldens, that she was legit.
 
#7 ·
Something seems a little off they say OFA tested with normal or good ratings but they are not listed on the offa.org website.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I would want to see the actual paperwork since only CERF and Cardiac are on the offa website. I think only dogs who don't pass would not be listed on the offa.org website but I could be wrong.
 
#8 ·
Oh sorry I missed that.

Most of her dogs are under 2 but she claims on her website that they have their hips and elbows done. On K9data, it says her dogs have prelims done. Those are not clearances so she is being misleading by saying they are cleared. For one dog she even went as far as putting "OFA Good" for hips on their k9data page, which is sketchy because why aren't there clearance numbers? Offa.org shows no hip or elbow clearances for that dog or ANY dog she has. She has one dog over the age of 2, but according to K9data she only has prelims and no real hip and elbow clearances.
 
#45 ·
Oh sorry I missed that.

Most of her dogs are under 2 but she claims on her website that they have their hips and elbows done. On K9data, it says her dogs have prelims done. Those are not clearances so she is being misleading by saying they are cleared. For one dog she even went as far as putting "OFA Good" for hips on their k9data page, which is sketchy because why aren't there clearance numbers? Offa.org shows no hip or elbow clearances for that dog or ANY dog she has. She has one dog over the age of 2, but according to K9data she only has prelims and no real hip and elbow clearances.

Maybe I am the one missing something here but when I looked at her website, it showed the dogs as having OFA prelims stating they had OFA prelims.

Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - OUR BOYS - BANKS, OR

If you look, it states that Sonic has prelims(because he is not old enough for finals) and I do not see where he is being bred.

This is the litter of puppies that she currently has and the puppies parents do have their hips and elbow clearances, which has been the complaint on this thread, that they did not. An eye clearance is not listed, but that can easily be checked with the breeder:
Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - PUPPIES! - BANKS, OR
Whyatt the sire :Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Misty the dam: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

She has a litter that is due in early December and the dam is Int'l CH Sunset's I Am Hope CGC. Here are her clearances: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
her CERF is out of date and her heart isn't listed but those things can be checked with the breeder and this thread has been about her not having hip and elbow clearances. Those are clearly listed.

I do not know this breeder at all and had never heard of her before this thread was started. I just believe that if information is going to be put out on the web about a breeder, it needs to be correct information.

It clearly states on her website which dogs have prelims and when those dogs will be retested for finals. I do not see this as decieving. Many breeders do prelims and then do finals, myself included. I don't always put that information on my website, but it can be seen on the OFA website.

It appears to me that this breeder is starting out and trying to do things the proper way. She may not state things exactly as people are used to seeing things stated but the dogs that have been recently bred do have hip and elbow clearances.
 
#49 ·
I would actually check with the service dog organizations listed (if even named) and ask THEM for that reference. "Breeders" have begun to claim that they produce and sell service dogs as a way to gain trust and legitimacy from unsuspecting purchasers. I will say that most if not ALL reputable service dog organizations will not accept puppies from dogs without all clearances.
 
#18 ·
COI is the coefficient of inbreeding. I don't understand the concept very well, but I think the idea is that dogs that are very closely related will share a lot of the same genetic material, and that means that the risk for undesirable traits can be compounded. So, generally, the lower the percentage, the better. Opinions vary one what is a "good" number, but I think less than 15% is considered reasonable.

Still, it's wise to keep in mind that the COI is only one factor to consider when evaluating breeding practices. Clearances, I think, are far more important, and it's also important to consider things like longevity and cause of death as well.
 
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#23 ·
I would check the service organizations out very carefully-not all are what they seem. Serious service dog organizations have very strict policies on health clearances and temperament, and breeding on prelims is almost never acceptable.

We have seen on this forum some "service organizations" who are not ones I would recommend at all and some so-called service dog breeders who were less than reputable (cough-GoldRocks-cough).

And I agree-prelims are NOT clearances and should not be presented as such.
 
#25 ·
COI percentages mean different things to different people, what is more important than the gross number is what dogs have the largest genetic influence in the pedigree. If a litter is line bred on a long-lived healthy dog who demonstrated special ability in competition and a great temperament than a really high COI is less an issue than if the COI is high but the dogs in the pedigree had health or temperament issues.

The big thing here is that she has bred these dogs before they got their final clearances at 2 years old. This is a violation of the GRCAs code of ethics, that right there makes her not reputable breeder, esepcially when she bred two under-aged dogs to each other. And yes she does state that her dogs have their clearances when the only have OFA preliminary clearances, which the OFA states are not to be considered clearances.

As someone stated, anyone can donate pups to service dog organizations and anyone can call themselves a service dog organization, so that statement is not very impressive. Neither are the titles that their dogs have. Don't mistake my statement as saying that a CD or a RX title are meaningless, but they are not considered major titles and as such not titles that prove that a dog is worth breeding. A UD, UDX, MX, MXJ, SH or above ARE titles that demonstrate that a dog has the aptitude required of a Golden.

You can and should expect your breeder to do it all in terms of certifying that a dog should be bred for a reasonable amount of money. You may have to look further or wait longer to get you pup, but do not compromise on quality.
 
#32 ·
I said why in my 1st post

I'll probably end up rescuing from a local shelter(Assuming they'll let me have one with me living in a apt. and not having a fenced yard*yet, we're getting one soon-ish* which several of the local rescues/shelters have strict policy's on).
I'm not ruling out shelters, they just have so many hoops you have to jump through, it's ridiculous. I look at available shelter dogs everyday, I also watch Craigslist for re-homes
 
#38 · (Edited)
Personally, I would not make a full judgement by a website alone.

I did not see who the parents were of the puppies she already sold, she does have a few co-owned dogs that are older.

The dogs that I have seen, are right about two or less than two, and she states she is waiting for their final clearances. I am not sure how long it takes to have them finalized and entered. One of the dogs just turned two about 6 weeks ago. I think one of them stated she just passed.

She does state on her website how her program has evolved the years she has been doing goldens. It sounds like sounds like she is now heading in the right direction.

She is a member of the Pacific Rim Golden Retriever Club and the GRCA or so she claims, I would contact them and see if she is a member in good standing.

A few of her dogs are off spring of Whiskey Creek, maybe get in touch with her, and see if she has an opinion one way or another about this breeder. According to K9DATA, they co-own http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=398855

The dogs on her website might not be all of her dogs. My breeder only shows about handful at a time and some of them are at the bridge.
 
#39 ·
Personally, I would not make a full judgement by a website alone.

I did not see who the parents were of the puppies she already sold, she does have a few co-owned dogs that are older.

The dogs that I have seen, are right about two or less than two, and she states she is waiting for their final clearances. I am not sure how long it takes to have them finalized and entered. One of the dogs just turned two about 6 weeks ago. I think one of them stated she just passed.

She does state on her website how her program has evolved the years she has been doing goldens. It sounds like sounds like she is now heading in the right direction.

She is a member of the Pacific Rim Golden Retriever Club and the GRCA or so she claims, I would contact them and see if she is a member in good standing.

A few of her dogs are off spring of Whiskey Creek, maybe get in touch with her, and see if she has an opinion one way or another about this breeder. According to K9DATA, they co-own Pedigree: UCI Int'l CH Whiskey Creeks Royal Flush CGC

The dogs on her website might not be all of her dogs. My breeder only shows about handful at a time and some of them are at the bridge.
I think Whiskey Creek may even be a member here :)
 
#44 ·
Fyi

I was really not going to respond to this because some of it makes me sad and the rest of it just makes me angry.

First of all, I do not EVER try to mislead people. In fact, I thought I couldn't have made it easier for people to see exactly what they had by 1)listing the last hip test, whether final or prelim, and then giving the exact link with that dogs information to k9data. At that point, it specifically says either the permanent OFA number OR the prelim WITH the PENN-HIP test results. I actually didn't know I could submit PENN HIP results to OFA and have them count. For that, thank you for the good information. ALL OF MY OLDER DOGS THAT ARE NO LONGER USED FOR BREEDING HAVE BOTH OFA PRELIM and a PENN-HIP OF 50% OR BETTER... BUT MOST OF THEM ARE IN THE 90% RANGE. I have since gone back and done a 3rd test on them for the OFA final just to please the unpleaseable and to get it on OFA. Everyone who comes out to meet me or my dogs can view all the paperwork. I also send home 3 generations of testing and pedigree information. This includes heart, hip, eye, elbow, Penn-hip, PRA, and Ichtyosis... It goes home in a tidy binder with vet records and AKC registration. My mentor that I origianally had was very big into Penn-Hip testing. That is why I have both. I even agreed and really thought that while both OFA and Penn-Hip are testing for hip dysplasia, they really are looking for different things and require different x-rays. I believe that doing both gives THE BEST picture of hip health in dogs. I stopped doing them a year ago due to expense and that they didn't show up on OFA website (again thanks for clearing this up since I can send these in.). In 2 days, I will have taken every dog I have either for hip final or prelims. It will be listed, as well as I will be adding a link to OFA for each dog. Again, I am not trying to hide anything. I wasn't before. Am not now. I thought I was being clear.

Next you bash the ability of my dogs. I am speechless to that. I will be the first to admit they don't have high ranking titles. That is a work in progress and more reflect my ability as a trainer than the ability of my dogs. When I started off doing this as a very serious hobby, I was happy that my dogs were earning a STAR AND CGC. I was really after proving they had the correct temperament. The problem is that I have unfortunately met many goldens that do not have the traits that we all value so highly. They were mean, aggressive, and hard to train. I returned them to the breeders and I did not breed those. (I also chose not to breed those dogs with passing hip tests, but that had a PENN-HIP score of 10% or 30%. Again, the information used TOGETHER was not good enough in my eyes to breed them, even though they could pass the OFA test by itself.) I originally set out wanting dogs that were beautiful, but soon realized that a good exterior meant nothing without a sound mind and heart (same could be said of people also :)

I'm getting off subject, but at any rate, my progression was breeding dogs that I thought were nice, then it went to dogs that had earned their CGC. Then I went to using dogs that had passed both CGC and had a Rally Novice title. This past summer, my first dog earned a Junior Hunt Title. You guys on this site, will totally knock that title and thats okay. I drove over 600 miles one way to earn that 4th qualified test. I was so High on life! I don't expect anyone reading this to actually care, but it was indescribable. Next year, all the new dogs I start will be required to have an obedience title, rally title, hunt title... Oh, and I just recently started tracking... What fun! The point is, that while my personal ability is still learning, it DOES NOT take away from the fact that my dogs do exhibit the qualities needed for service, performance, and family pets. And I prove this at the level I am capable of. Each year, that level will become higher and higher. Next year, I get to start a dog for Senior Hunt tests and have 2 that should earn their CDX. That, no matter how you want to bash me, makes me happy and proud.

To specifically hit on the STAR thing... every single pup that I keep I take to puppy class. It is important for 2 reasons: 1) I get to see my pups interacting with other dogs in the same setting that the new owners see. It lets me evaluate and confirm that my dogs are exactly what i say they are. 2) I PREACH to all my new owners the importance of puppy class. How can I ask them to spend money and time on it when I won't? It doesn't make sense. I pay for it and value it. So should they value those same things in their pet. I will always see the value in this.

Someone made the comment that my dogs may not be the breed standard. To that I'm also so excited say that also isn't true. They meet height, weight, temperament, instincts, and beauty. The conformation is good. I'm also super excited that early next year we will have a CCA event near me and that my dogs are going!!! Just because a dog does not show in AKC conformation does not mean it is not a correct dog. I should also point out that just because a dog does show in AKC conformation doesn't mean that the same dog can go out and retieve a bird. It works both ways.

As far as knocking the service dog organizations... well, it makes me sad beyond belief. Is there a possibility of a bad apple out there? Sure, but I'm very confident that the ones I work with are not those. I recieve updates, go to my dogs graduations, and I get to see my dog with its new working partner. This, hands down, is the best part of what I do. I get to see a dog change a person's life. A person that wasn't able to be in public on their own, now can. A marine with PTSD can now function. Imagine the bond you have with your dog and then multiply it infanately because the fact is that many of the people cannot function without their service dog. Shame on you for that. These people deserve extra help and I am and will always be willing to help those people that provide these dogs for people.

My dogs are exactly what I say they are. I cannot guarantee they will be the next OTCH or that they will become a Champion show dog. WHAT I CAN GUARANTEE is that I have bred from healthy parents, with wonderful health history (which I can verify with my binder of info/ofa website) of which I provide 3 generations, and that they will have the characteristics that the breed standard calls for and that most people seek. I have proven through the showing, classes, and training that my dogs are calm, easy to train, and that they can still do very well in stressful and busy situations.

I won't be responding to this anymore. I appreciate the info about the Penn-hip being eligble for OFA. I dotted my I's but didn't cross my T's. I have since fixed that/in the process of fixing it. In fact, I've even gone back to people with the adults I've retired and paid for an OFA final for them... just so its on record with OFA even though I already posess the test for OFA prelim and PENN HIP. As always, all info will be listed on my website and anyone with questions is welcome to call me or email me personally. I have copies of EVERYTHING, though everything should be listed on OFA by the end of the year.

I will continue to advocate for people with disabilities and for those who go above and beyond to make a difference in their life.

I will continue to enjoy my dogs, our activities together, and the feelings of pride when they do well, and the sadness when we don't do as well as I had hoped :)
 
#47 ·
Sigh. I so appreciate what PennHIP is doing....but honestly I wish they would go away. I wish they would require a dog to be over 2 years old and I wish they had an online verifiable database. Because isn't it a big coincidence that every fringe breeder who has spotty clearances and has to step up and defend breeding dogs without OFA clearances (NOT PRELIMS), magically is a big proponent of PennHIP? Yet by-the-book responsible golden breeders use PennHIP once in a blue moon and only when accompanied by an OFA score? Wow what a revelation.....
Listen....DO THE OFA FINAL HIP EVALUATIONS. Not a prelim. Not an xray your vet eyeballs. Just do it. Then you don't have to defend anything. End of story. For half the price of one of those JH entry fees you can submit a FINAL OFA xray and get a REAL CLEARANCE.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Penn-Hip is a very valuable tool. I use it quite infrequently as my prelim as it give a total picture of the hip joint by rating the laxity and anatomy of the joint. The theory is that if the laxity is poor that joint could become displastic over time due to the play in the joint. People need to become more educated in Penn-hip.

I work with a vet that does Penn-hip and have had a chance to go to a couple of seminars on penn hip. I highly recommend them if you have a chance to go to one very educational.

That is why I choose to use both tools when considering a dog for my breeding program. Like Sunset goldens I have homed very nice dogs with OFA Good hips but low laxity scores. I have also kept dogs with Fair OFA hips with high laxity scores.

The issue I have with OFA is on any given day your results may be different depending on the three Dr that read your x-ray and the positioning of your dog it is so subjecting. If the position of your dog is off you could go from a good OFA to a Moderate result please see video below.

 
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